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"The S.B.R. Affair"

Posted by robertboyd2, Apr 24 2009, 04:58 PM

Brad has asked for a detailed explanation of the Short-Barreled-Rifle registration process and how it’s done in relation to registering an U.N.C.L.E. carbine.

First and foremost—I’m not a lawyer—my paycheck would be a lot larger if I was. The following information is a guideline, to assist readers in understanding the SBR registration process and should not be relied upon as legal advice. Anyone with questions or in need of further guidance should contact the National Firearms Act (NFA) branch of the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives (BATFE).

Before beginning, I urge everyone to check their state and local laws to make sure you’re in compliance with all regulations.

The process is more time-consuming and aggravating than difficult. Regardless, you must have a BATFE-approved Form 1 in your possession prior to attaching the stock. To accomplish this, you’ll need the following:

BATFE Form 1s—Application to Make and Register a Firearm. You’ll be filling this form out in duplicate (mailing 2 copies), along with (2) FBI fingerprint cards (form FD-258), and a Certificate of Compliance (form 5330.20). You can contact BATFE for the forms by visiting this website, or use online forms at www.titleii.com. BATFE Form 1 can be accessed there as well. The Certificate of Compliance can be found there too.

The best way to obtain the fingerprint cards is either from your local court house or police station (i.e., whichever entity processes CCW applications for your state). You’ll also need (2), recent 2x2 passport photos to affix to the Form 1s.

Note: When printing your forms using the .PDF file, each form can take up no more than two sheet of paper. You must print both sides on a single sheet of paper. Failure to do so will more than likely result in your forms being returned along with a form letter informing you they didn’t meet the required format and need to be re-done—which will likely add to the normal 90-120 day processing time. (Taped or glued forms are also not acceptable). Before proceeding, I suggest you print a copy of the Form 1 and the directions on the last two pages to serve as a guide while filling out the paperwork.

When filling out the Form1s, don’t forget to fill out/print a second copy in order to submit the documentation in duplicate. The following pertains to filling out the Form 1for an individual (as opposed to businesses, corporations or government entities):

Block 1: Type of Application: check box A for a $200 check or money order made payable to Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives. Upon the application’s approval, you will receive one of the approved Form 1s back with the required “National Firearms Act” stamp affixed.

Block 2: Application is Made By: check the box for individual.

Block 3a: Not applicable to individual SBR registration.

Block 3b: Since you are the applicant, your name and address goes here.

Block 3c: If a P.O. Box was used in (3b), list a physical address here.

Block 3d: The county where you reside.

Block 3e: Your telephone number with area code.

Block 4a: The firearm manufacturer information; since my P38 in question is an AC45 I listed: Carl Walther GmBH, Zella-Mehlis, Germany.

Block 4b: Type of Firearm to be made: Short-barreled Rifle.

Block 4c: Caliber of firearm (e.g., 9 mm).

Block 4d: Model: P 38.

Block 4e: Length of Barrel: Since the U.N.C.L.E. Special utilizes different barrels I cited the pistol barrel length (3 inches) in order to have the freedom of switching to the larger carbine barrel—I cited the longer barrel and wanted to shoot the rifle with the 3-inch barrel, it would be a violation. Think in terms of driving down a one way street: Form 1 permits you to register a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches as a rifle. Use of longer barrels is perfectly acceptable—more importantly, perfectly legal.

Block 4f: Length overall: cite the total length of the rifle with the shortest barrel with cage and collapsed stock attached. Based on the data I compiled during my research, I cited 15 inches.

Block 4g: Serial Number.

Block 4h: Additional Description: cite all other numbers or data here, such as the P38’s AC code, or importer.

Block 4i: State why you’re making the firearm, such as “collecting and investment purposes.”

Block 5: Not applicable to individual SBR registration.

Block 6: Not applicable to individual SBR registration.

Block 7a-f: Check yes or no.

Block 8a-e: Check yes or no.

Block 9: Signature of Applicant.

Block 11: Date of Application.

Block 12: Attach two 2x2 passport photos of yourself—taken within the past year.

Fill out and sign the Certificate of Compliance (form 5330.20).

Next contact your local police and inquire about being fingerprinted. Locations vary depending on jurisdiction and state. There will probably be a small fee. After you’ve been printed, take all the documents to your Chief Law Enforcement Official (CLEO) for their signature. Chances are you’ll have to leave the forms to be signed, so plan ahead and bring a self-addressed stamped envelope (SASE).

Upon receipt, write a $200 check or get a money order issues—payable to the BATFE—along with all other documentation (signed Form 1s, fingerprint cards and Certificate of Compliance), and mail it to the address listed at the top of ATF Form 1. As previously mentioned, the approval process generally takes 90-120 business days, assuming everything is filled out correctly.

Two final pieces of advice: since you’re required to produce the approved documentation should the need arise, consider copying it (keeping your original in a safe place) and adding the copy to your range bag. Or, have your SBR’s control number engraved somewhere on the gun.

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Comments

  PaulTariman, Apr 24 2009, 05:04 PM

Many thanks for this-tremendously helpful.

  stymie, Apr 24 2009, 06:01 PM

ATTENTION FIELD AGENTS WITH ENFORCEMENT DIVISION... ALERT!!!!

Make sure that you get original (not photocopies) FBI FD-258 fingerprint cards & use BLACK ink when you fill them out. The "Routing Stamp" must be correct for this application.

Measure the barrel length WITHOUT the birdcage flashhider unless the FH is "permanently affixed" (blind pinned/welded).

I order my forms directly from BAFTE; that way you get the "current" revisions & avoid getting your paperwork kicked back. Fingerprint cards can be ordered from them as well.

The "Maker" shown on the Form 1 MUST engrave his name & location on the weapon, usually the receiver in a conspicuous location at a specified depth & size. Abbreviations that used to be OK for the identifying markings can be cause for non-compliance.

Only one "Certificate of Citizenship Compliance" is required to be submitted.

I ALWAYS use a personal check for the $200 "Making Tax"; that way I can track progress through by bank online or over the phone with prompts.

In my area, WALGREENS, does color passport photos in duplicate for cheap on Wednesdays... just a thought!

I ALWAYS overnight my mail package USPS ONLY! OK, it's $16.50, BUT... it won't get LOST in the shuffle!!!!!! IF it doesn't get there within 24hrs, it's FREE. Yes, it's happened... heheheeee

Make sure that everything is LEGIBLE! Proof read it & proof read it again. Have someone with experience review your form before sending it on its merry way. The slightest error or omission will be cause for aggravating delays that can be avoided with a little diligence.

IF you build an U.N.C.L.E. Special modular carbine without a "short" barrel (under 16" OL) & the weapon is at least 26" OL fully assembled, it IS considered a Title 1 (conventional) rifle & NFA registrat
ion is NOT required. NOTE: the mere possession of a normal P.38 barrel with these other components CAN be considered "constructive possession" of an illegal SBR (short barreled rifle). In other words... IF the carbine's barrel assembly is monolithic (including a non-detachable "silencer") all the way back (non-segmented barrel extensions) to the chamber's throat & it's at least 16", you're good to go without a lot of paper, tax & hassle. However, if you play games with the ATF & lose, it could cost you up to $250K in fines & 10 years at Leavenworth!

GOOD LUCK!

stymie

  stymie, Apr 24 2009, 06:29 PM

Hey Bob,

Are you going to tell us about a possible rogue agent who is in the process of building the M1-based T.H.R.U.S.H. carbine with Infra-Red snooperscope & realistic "cricket" chirps?

Does anyone have declassified photos of the birdbeak flashhider? Is it 3 or 4 pronged, open ended?

_j_j & V

  Guest, Apr 25 2009, 03:21 AM

Guys, I have a question.My prior understanding and I believe also what you are saying is that if the p38 barrel is 16 inches long, which would include measured from the breech, permanently attached and including a permanently attached faux silencer the weapon is legal, even with the stock attached and would not require registration. A one piece barrel that is 16 inches or more is not a short barrelled rifle and the atf does not care how long a barrel is, it is the stock that creates the problem and a permanent 16 inch barrel solves that problem. I hope I am not too fuzzy on my description, as I would like your opinion on the legality of what I have described as I am considering building a carbine with a permanent 16 inch barrel. My state does not allow stocks to be attached to a pistol even though the atf does.

thanks for any help

  stymie, Apr 25 2009, 03:43 PM

Where do you live? Different locales have different ordinances. Can you have a "high capacity feeding device" for example or are you limited to 10rd? I'm NOT aware of ANY LAW preventing someone from installing a one-piece 16" barrel on a P.38 alone; it will still be considered a title 1 pistol. Are SBRs (short barreled rifles) prohibited where you reside? If that's the case, you can still add the stock as long as the OL of the fully assembled weapon is greater than 26" with a monolithic barrel assembly over 16" OL as long as there isn't a specific ruling against such a thing. Pistol to title 1 rifle configuration is sanctioned by most locales.

-John

  stymie, Apr 25 2009, 03:51 PM

Remember, since the 16" bbl assembly will weigh in at more than 8oz, you will need a booster (linear inertial decoupler) or the firearm will be a manually cycled single-shot weapon as the added weight creates too much inertial mass to pull along during the pressure phase before the block unlocks & the slide continues its travel rearward. The LID needs to be close to the P.38's slide to work properly. Since an LID disassembles for cleaning, leaving a short stubby barrel, you're back to making an SBR (OR a pistol w/o a QD stock) if you want it to cycle semi-automatically.

-John

  uncle111, Apr 30 2009, 01:16 AM

Guest- if you own a P38, a grip for the P38 that you can attach a stock to, and you own a P38 barrel that is shorter than 16", even if you also own a P38 barrel that is 16", I have been told by an attroney who specializes in gun law and by a suppressor manufacturer that ATF will likely consider that the shorter than 16" P38 barrel is going make the whole thing a short barrelled rifle. In which case, if your P38 is not registerd as a short barrelled rifle you will be in hot water.

If you own a P38, a 16" P38 barrel, a grip that can take a stock, a stock, and a second P38 with a shorter than 16" barrel then you are ok. You just can't have a shorter than 16" barrel laying around with a P38, a grip that can take a stock and a stock, even if you also have a 16" barrel for the gun, unless the gun is registered as a short barrelled rifle. It is the shorter than 16" barrel that doesn't have any where to go that creates the problem.

I hope this is clearer to you than it was to me the first time I heard it:)

  uncle111, Apr 30 2009, 01:26 AM

John,
I think Bob mentioned in the comments to a previous post that he didn't have any cycling problems using his barrel and dummy suppressor. It will be interesting to see if this holds with more shooting.

  uncle111, Apr 30 2009, 01:28 AM

John,
The Thrush flash hider is 2 pronged. I had the original prototype for a while and took photos and measurements.

  guest, Apr 30 2009, 10:19 PM

QUOTE (uncle111 @ Apr 30 2009, 01:16 AM)
Guest- if you own a P38, a grip for the P38 that you can attach a stock to, and you own a P38 barrel that is shorter than 16", even if you also own a P38 barrel that is 16", I have been told by an attroney who specializes in gun law and by a suppressor manufacturer that ATF will likely consider that the shorter than 16" P38 barrel is going make the whole thing a short barrelled rifle. In which case, if your P38 is not registerd as a short barrelled rifle you will be in hot water.

If you own a P38, a 16" P38 barrel, a grip that can take a stock, a stock, and a second P38 with a shorter than 16" barrel then you are ok. You just can't have a shorter than 16" barrel laying around with a P38, a grip that can take a stock and a stock, even if you also have a 16" barrel for the gun, unless the gun is registered as a short barrelled rifle. It is the shorter than 16" barrel that doesn't have any where to go that creates the problem.

I hope this is clearer to you than it was to me the first time I heard it:)

  Guest, Apr 30 2009, 10:20 PM

many thanks to all of you for the advice on the 16 inch barrel

  stymie, May 2 2009, 04:01 AM

QUOTE (uncle111 @ Apr 29 2009, 07:16 PM)
Guest- if you own a P38, a grip for the P38 that you can attach a stock to, and you own a P38 barrel that is shorter than 16", even if you also own a P38 barrel that is 16", I have been told by an attroney who specializes in gun law and by a suppressor manufacturer that ATF will likely consider that the shorter than 16" P38 barrel is going make the whole thing a short barrelled rifle. In which case, if your P38 is not registerd as a short barrelled rifle you will be in hot water.


That's true ONLY if you have the QD stock in your "possession or control" & those above mentioned items. There must have been a misunderstanding.

Just because a pistol has a stock lug, dovetail or other quick release fitting + a bbl shorter than 16", that does not equate to an SBR or even "constructive possession". Take for example a typical P.08 Luger with a 4" bbl + STOCK LUG. It's NOT a Navy or Artillery Luger, yet most of P.08s have this lug. The Browning Hi Power is often encountered with 500m tangent sights + a dovetail in the rear of the grip to accept a stock. Broomhandle Mausers are the same way. These are conventional Title 1 firearms & considered C&R (Curio & Relics). BATFE's Tech Branch/ NFA Branch has even in some cases ruled that some of the pistols are NO LONGER under purview as Title 2 weapons when combined with QD stocks & short barrels. The Inglis Chinese contract BHP, Artillery & Navy Lugers, Broomhandles & many others are exempt.

NOTE: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1972-2007/section3.pdf

  stymie, May 2 2009, 04:02 AM

Brad,

Pics please of the two prong FH?
Pretty please!

-John

  stymie, May 20 2009, 02:59 PM

Hiya Bob,

It appears that NFA Branch has provided a new ruling that addresses going back & forth from pistol to rifle & back to pistol again. This is something that you would do in sequence when "cleaning" or dismantling" the modular carbine: (You might have to register & sign in) http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39721

(IMG:http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk219/WhisperFan/Convert1.jpg)

(IMG:http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk219/WhisperFan/Convert2.jpg)

That said, the ONLY safe way to build the U.N.C.L.E. Special modular carbine would be to file a Form 1, pay the $200 "Making TAX" & build a registered SBR.

_j_j & V

  uncle111, Jun 4 2009, 05:46 PM

John,
That is correct. I intended to say that you would also have to have the stock.
Brad

  uncle111, Jun 4 2009, 11:53 PM

QUOTE (stymie @ May 1 2009, 10:02 PM)
Brad,

Pics please of the two prong FH?
Pretty please!

-John

How's this?
(IMG:http://www.theunclegun.com/catchall/3.jpg)

Brad

  Guest, Nov 24 2009, 06:16 AM

No where within the instructions included with Form - 1 does it indicate that a Form 5330.20 Certificate of Compliance needs to be included. It says you need 2 completed copies of form 1, on a single sheet of paper with 2x2 photos, properly completed FBI fingerprint cards and CLEO signatures. Form 5330.20 states it is to accompany an application for an FFL. Why did you include this in your guide?

  Guest, Jul 1 2010, 06:45 PM

does anyone have the thrush flash hider for sale?

 

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